Episode 268 / Anna Ivanko / Ubisoft / Senior Media Manager, Global Marketing
Capturing Active Attention From An Increasingly Distracted Digital Audience
Anna Ivanko is the Senior Media Manager, Global Marketing, at Ubisoft, where she creates media plans for the company’s successful video games. Her data driven marketing approach has helped her swim through a “sea of data”, acting like a detective that treats each insight like a clue that’s helping solve the puzzle of customer behaviour.
This has led to her shiny new object – the concept of "active attention." This challenges us to consider "if we're truly engaged with the content we're consuming, or if we are merely scrolling through or glancing." "We live in the world of digital distractions, and it's a very vital question, are we actually paying attention to what we're doing? Anna explains. "And we all know that our attention spans are shrinking. They're getting shorter and shorter."
The research backs up Anna's observations. According to Professor Gloria Mark, the average attention span has plummeted from 2.5 minutes just 20 years ago to 47 seconds 5 years ago. More recent research suggests it’s a mere 12.6 seconds today before we switch to a different screen. It's a staggering decline, and one that Anna believes marketers must confront head-on. So, how can brands capture this elusive active attention? Anna has identified three key strategies:
Break the pattern with novelty. "One of the ways to create a scroll stopper is to introduce something very new and unexpected that a user has not seen before," Anna says, pointing to examples like Barbie's CGI-powered emergence from a box in Dubai or Maybelline's mascara-applying subway train.
Break the pattern with brand personality and authenticity. "A good example of that, I think, would be something that Duolingo is doing on social media when they have this witty and sassy personality, and it feels like you're honestly following someone you know, like it's a real person," Anna explains.
Integrate across campaigns. Anna argues that it's not enough to simply disrupt the audience's behaviour – brands must also create meaningful interactions that reinforce their message and values.
By leveraging these "scroll stopper" tactics, Anna believes marketers can cut through the noise and capture the active attention of their audience. Find out more on the podcast.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Anna Ivanko 0:00
The best marketers I have worked with, they always see beyond the graphs and the charts. They see the context and the narrative. It's almost like being a detective, where every piece of data is leading you to a clue when you're trying to solve consumer behavior.
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Tom Ollerton 0:54
Hello and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of the creative effectiveness ad tech platform, Automated Creative, and this is a podcast about the future of data driven marketing. Every week or so I have the massive pleasure and privilege of speaking to some amazing people from the industry about where they think data driven marketing is going. And this week is no different. I'm on a call with Anna Ivanko, who is senior media manager Global Marketing at Ubisoft. So Anna, for anyone who doesn't know who you are and what you do, can you give us a bit of background?
Anna Ivanko 1:30
Yes, so I am currently working with Ubisoft, and I am on the global media team. So what I do, I create media plans for different video games that ubisoft launches in the market, and I've been doing that over the past six years. So worked on 14 different video games, launched four of them. So really, very exciting, job responsibilities and opportunities related to that. Before that, I was doing digital marketing for hint water, which is a trendy beverage startup. So I was driving user acquisition and subscriptions for water, which is not something that you hear very often. But yes, we were selling water online on subscription, and was very successful. And before that, I was actually a brand marketing manager for an upscale fashion retailer. So that's how I started my journey in marketing. But what's funny, when I went to college, I did not study marketing. I was supposed to be an economics major, but I pivoted later, so never looked back. Marketing has been a very exciting journey for me.
Tom Ollerton 2:42
So in your career, what has been that biggest mistake that you were red faced, ashamed, embarrassed, but actually in retrospect, looking back, you glad it happened?
Anna Ivanko 2:54
Yeah, that's a great question. So my biggest work mistake that set me up for success happened early in my career, then I was a brand marketing manager for Axis, which was an upscale fashion footwear retailer back in Europe. And here's how it all started. As a fresh graduate, I was searching for a job opportunity, and I saw this interesting job posting that said that we're looking for a brand manager, and you will be responsible for creating and promoting collections of shoes and accessories, and you will be traveling internationally every six months to all the different countries. And that looked great to me. I was like, wow, this is a fantastic opportunity. And there was a very peculiar requirement in that job posting that said that all female applicants must have shoe size 37 so if you're not shoe size 37 do not apply for this job. We're not going to consider you. So as it turned out, during different shoe exhibitions and when you are in the manufacturer's showroom, the manufacturers cannot afford to bring a full size round of any particular model. So if you work in the you know, for a shoe retailer, as a buyer on the marketing team, you have to have a European size 37 because that's the only size they bring to all of these events and exhibit in the showroom. So you have to be able to try it on, and if needed, tell people that you know, this needs to be adjusted. This shoe needs to be a little bit wider or so on, so that they would make those changes for the production. So I had my little Cinderella moment back then, because I was exactly shoe size 37 and I got the job, which I was very happy about. And not long into the job, there was a significant oversight that I made. So we were working on a collection of shoes, and there was this gorgeous model of blue Italian leather shoes from Portugal, and they had a beige heel. So when the sample arrived, I told the factory to change the heel from beige to blue, and that's how the model went into production. However, I didn't know that they used that sample in the photo shoot, and in the photo shoot, it had exactly that beige heel. So the collection arrived in stores, and we realized that it doesn't look like the photos in the photo shoot. And what was worse, we had giant billboards promoting the collection, and it had the wrong model on it. So our CMO wanted to find out who made that mistake, what happened. And I knew that, you know, I had to admit it, I had to explain what happened. And there was a standard practice back then that we always had the heel to match in color with the shaft of the boot. But unfortunately, for that particular model, our CMO had a different vision, and she wanted it to be beige. So I remember that I walk into her office and she's sitting at her desk, and she's kind of, you know, typing something on her laptop. And the long the path to her desk was not that long, maybe, like three, four meters, but to me, it felt like the longest road ever. And I start walking towards her, and in my head, I'm thinking, Okay, how many billboards actually have this particular model on them? I'm thinking, okay, probably five. How much would it cost me to reprint those billboards with the right photo? I'm thinking, okay, that's probably like two, 2.5 months of my salary. I could probably afford that. And to me, it was really, really important not to lose the trust that CMO had in me, so I was willing to pay out of pocket just to fix that mistake. But in my head, I didn't know how she was going to react if she was going to fire me immediately, or reprimand me, or, you know, any other, any other thing that could have happened. So I walk over to her desk, she's typing, and I start explaining the situation. I say that it's my mistake, and I would like to reprint those out of home billboards out of my own pocket just to fix it. And she looked at me, and in her eyes, I could see how much she appreciated the fact that I was able to own the mistake, acknowledge it, and tell her that that was my fault. And she told me back then, she said, I know that in our careers, and same in our lives, we always strive for perfection, but it doesn't happen. Thank you for letting me know about this mistake, and let that be the lesson for you about the importance of details and communication. So since then, honestly, I have this approach where I think that no detail is too little to be ignored. Honestly, you might think that this particular detail doesn't matter to you. It doesn't matter to the customer, but in the bigger scheme of things, it could be really, really important. So it's always better to pay attention to those details when you make any of the decisions, and also you have to get approvals from the execs. So that's another lesson that you have learned here.
Tom Ollerton 8:27
Wow, man. What a story, although I think I 'd push back and say it was the CMO's fault, it's her department, her responsibility, not yours, but well done for I don't think I would have offered to pay for it, but I massively respect that move and and a great story. Well, well told. So, okay, so moving on from kind of a mindset, piece of advice. Can we get specific now, let's get into data driven marketing specifically. And is there a bit of advice that's equally as powerful when it comes to data driven marketing that you find yourself sharing or passing on to people in the team or people you mentor?
Anna Ivanko 9:16
Yes, that's a good question Tom, and I think you know, it's also maybe, if we take a step back, we should think, why should marketing be data driven? Because some people don't agree with that. To be honest, I think if you are not using data in marketing, you are essentially banking on luck and not on strategy. And that's what I call wishful marketing. You know, it's like, I hope it works, but I don't know for sure. So that's why, in my opinion, really need the data. But I think in today's world, we are swimming in the sea of data. There is just so much data around us, and we as marketers also have access to a ton of data. I have seen this firsthand in my career when two marketers could be looking at the exactly the same data set, right the same metrics, and they would be coming away with two wildly different interpretations or conclusions. For example, imagine we are running a campaign for a video game, and one marketer could be looking at the high number of downloads, and say, Oh, wow, the campaign is doing great. We have a very high number of downloads, right? And another marketer could look at that and then look at the low engagement rate and say, you know, the average player session is kind of short, I think. Let me dig deeper into what's going on here. And they might do that and say, Oh, the game is just too hard. A lot of people are dropping off after the first level. So actually, it's not doing well on the retention side. So it's not where, where we want it to be, right? So it's just an example of how sometimes you have to dig a lot deeper into the data and the see what the insights are telling you, versus just going with like your first gut feeling and the first interpretation that you might have. And I think the best marketers I have worked with, they always see beyond the graphs and the charts, so they they see the context and the narrative right. They ask questions like, what is really happening? What is the data telling us? What can I learn from the user behavior in this particular example? So in a way, it's almost like being a detective, I want to say, in a crime drama, where every piece of data is leading you to a clue when you're trying to solve consumer behavior. So I think where many marketers get it wrong, they think that data driven marketing is about proving that you are right. You're using data to prove that you are right, but in reality, you should use data to make you right. Instead of trying to prove that the strategy you're suggesting will work. It's more about using the insights to create your strategy. Yeah, so, and sometimes, you know, it's also about refining your strategies and admitting that you were on based on what the data tells you.
Tom Ollerton 12:13
I really like the analogy of being a detective. I've not heard that one before. I might steal that. Thank you. And now, what was it like? Don't use data to prove you're right, but to make you right, which I think is a nice, nice, subtle difference there. So going to move on now to your shiny new object, which is active attention. So what is that? Why is it your shiny new object?
Anna Ivanko 12:37
Yes, so I have been exploring this concept for a little while now, and the idea of active attention challenges us to consider if we're truly engaged with the content we're consuming, or if we are merely scrolling through or glancing. I think we live in the world of digital distractions, and it's a very vital question, are we actually paying attention to what we're doing, or are we merely glancing and we all know that our attention spans are shrinking. They're getting shorter and shorter. There was a very interesting research I saw from Gloria mark. She is a professor of Informatics at UC Irvine, and she started researching attention 20 years ago, and 20 years ago, when she did her first research, the attention span, meaning the amount of time someone can stay on a single screen before they shift to another screen or doing something else was 2.5 minutes. So that's, you know, that's not a ton of time. I want to say even 20 years ago, but it's still 2.5 minutes. So then she did the same research five years ago, and she found out that over the course of 15 years, our attention has decreased three times so people someone can stay on the same screen for 47 seconds, as of you know, the data from five years ago. And then what's even interesting this year, I saw some data from another analytics company that tried to measure active attention, and based on their estimates, the amount of time someone can stay like today this year on a single screen is only 12.6 seconds. So it's very, very short, in my opinion, going through 2.5 minutes just 20 years ago to barely 13 seconds on one screen.
Tom Ollerton 14:46
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So what is the importance, or what is the opportunity, or what is the worry for a marketer who's listening to this show, with our our attention is shrinking, or there's something that is shrinking our attention. It's not clear from your data point which one it is, so, so what does that mean? What? How should marketers approach data driven marketing differently because of that?
Anna Ivanko 15:47
From marketers, we are facing a very difficult challenge, because we are only able to get very fragmented attention from people, and we have to do something meaningful by that while we get that fragmented attention, I think people have heard about the phenomenon of banner blindness for a really long time, and we all know what it is, but for some people who may not, I'll just say that the banner blindness is when user consciously or subconsciously ignore any banner like content on the particular positions of the web page. And some of the studies from Nielsen, for example, have shown, using their eye tracking methodology, that people will focus on the center of the page, they will completely ignore the top and the sides, because they are so used to getting ads in those particular placements that they will decide to ignore them altogether, so they are not even paying attention to anything that is going on there. And based on some estimates, I have seen, 86% of people have what they call banner blindness. So they're not looking for any content at the top and you know, the bottom left and right panels of the page, because they think that there will be some ads shown there. And I think, as we have seen, the banners have started to decline in performance. Quite a long time ago, a lot of advertisers have shifted to video, because media right now is performing much, much better than just the static, static image, and even the CTRs that you are getting on the media ads are better than the CTRs you're getting on any banners. So I think that we as users are bombarded with videos across all of the platforms. We're bombarded with videos across social media, things, YouTube, Twitch CTV, even mobile apps. So all of these different environments serve us ads. And I don't think it's prevalent just yet, but my prediction is that very soon on we will see what I would call a concept of a video ad blindness. So what I mean by that is that very soon, our brain will start to subconsciously tune off if it doesn't see a familiar or a relevant person in the video, relevant to their interests or to Yeah, to the interest that you have. So I think why I think this could be the case? Well, number one, the over exposure to video ads. We are getting so many ads everywhere, on all of the platforms that we slowly start to be less receptive to them. Then number two, a lot of videos have very predictable placement, right? So you kind of expect through all on YouTube, mutual and Facebook, and, you know, it's very predictable for you as a consumer to know when the video will play and start. So you can start tuning off. You might start to look at some other content on the page, or, you know, switch to another tab, whatever it is, but you are just paying less attention to what's going on there. And then I think the user experience right now for some of the video ads is also not quite where it should be, so people don't want to even spend any time watching them. And that's why I think the phenomenon of video blindness could be something that can come next.
Tom Ollerton 19:24
So in terms of the shiny new object, active attention, like, how would you get it? I see banner blindness, yes, video blindness, yeah, I understand your argument. But how would you get active attention? Like, what are the kind of three things that a brand listening to this could or an agency listening to this podcast could do to make sure that they're getting active attention, just as opposed to annoyed attention or passive attention, right?
Anna Ivanko 19:50
That's a great question, and this is where I would talk about the concept that I call scroll stoppers. So scroll stoppers in my opinion, are pieces of content that are designed to pause the scrolling process and stop you from continuing consuming the, let's say, social media feed, so that you would actually want to engage with the content that you see. So it's not about the flashy hooks, you know, and clickbait titles. It's more than that. It's about creating something new and meaningful that a person will create will react with. So I think there are two ways to create scroll stars. So the first one is to break the pattern with novelty, and the second one is to break the pattern with brand personality and authenticity. So what I mean by the first one, when you break the pattern with novelty, one of the ways to create a scroll stopper is to introduce something very new and unexpected that a user has not seen before, and an example of something like that, and what that could look like would be fake out of home ads and CGI that, you know, we all have seen over the past, you know, I want to say year or two, but they're all very stunning and fascinating to look at. I think the most prominent example that I can give is the image of a Barbie stepping out of the box in Dubai, which, you know, completely went viral everywhere where it was shared. And there are many examples like that as well. Check news did that when they had giant CGI CGI bags, you know, rolling around Paris, for example. Or Maybelline did an example where they had a subway train with lashes who was applying mascara on them when they were passing through the station. So that's one of the example of the CGI Fake Out Of Home assets that looks so different to what people have seen before that they stop and they consume that content. And the second thing, if we go to the break the pattern with authenticity and brand personality, I think this is where you have you as a brand, have to develop a very strong and authentic voice and brand personality and action. A good example of that, I think, would be something that Duolingo is doing on social media when they have this witty and sassy personality, and it feels like you're honestly following someone you know, like it's a real person, because they have their own voice, they have their own sense of humor. It doesn't feel like you are following a corporate account, and because of that, they're getting massive engagement on all of their social channels. So that's that would be the two ways I could see that any brand could use just to create scroll stoppers, and I think to implement them, you have to know your audience really, really well, because you need to understand who they are, what their consumption habits are, where they're spending most of their time. So then you kind of know what type of disruptive content you can create for them. I think you also have to be willing to experiment, because some companies may not be, you know, willing to experiment, and they may not be willing to take too many risks. So that's another issue. For example, not every brand would be willing to have such a unique brand, voice and personality and Duolingo has, because it, it could seem a little bit too risky for some of the marketers. And then the third thing I would say is integration across the campaigns. So you are not just trying to disrupt the behavior, right? You are also trying to create a meaningful interaction with the brand that will incentivize the users to discover more about this brand. So they would want to learn more, they would want to interact with you, so you would reinforce your brand message and brand values by doing that.
Tom Ollerton 24:13
So there's some absolutely lovely suggestions there, as well as the examples as well. You know, talk about the Maybelline train with the lashes, and that just immediately came back to me. I was like, yes, that even worked on me. That even worked on me. And I'm not, definitely not the target audience. So that is such a good example. We're at the end of this podcast now. And so if someone wants to get in touch with you about active attention or making crazy mistakes and paying for billboards. Where would you like someone to do that? And what makes a good message to you? What makes you reply to someone?
Anna Ivanko 24:45
Yes, I think LinkedIn is probably the best platform to reach out to me. You can find me there using my name so Anna ivanko and I'm known for replying to all of my cold messages. So if you send me a message. Most likely I will invite you.
Tom Ollerton 25:01
Brilliant Anna, thank you so much for your time.
Anna Ivanko 25:03
Thank you Tom, for having me.
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